Wifely Submission

Dulce de Leche has a series on Wifely Submission

Part 1 Intro
Part 2 Before The Fall
Part 3 The Fall
Part 4 What God Has Joined Together
Part 5 Wives, Submit Yourselves to Your Husbands
Part 6 Spiritual Leadership
Part 7 Who Makes the Final Decision?

Also Eric Pazdziora explores The Myth of the Weaker Vessel.

Is Debi Pearl to Blame?

Livinginblurredlines shares how the advice in Debi Pearl’s book, Created To Be His Help Meet negatively affected her marriage.  However she does not want to put the blame on Debi Pearl saying,

Blaming Debi Pearl’s “Created To Be His Helpmeet” book for what I am going through is like blaming a cookbook for your burned dinner.

I’m not so sure I agree with that. If the cookbook tells me to cook the dinner for 30 minutes at 350 and I cook the dinner for 3o minutes at 350 and it burns, I’m going to warn people that the cookbook has some bad information in it.  Sure, I should have kept an eye on the food and noticed if it started burning and saved my dinner.  But whether I saved my dinner or not, the cookbook has shown itself to contain unreliable information and people should be warned about it.

That said, she makes some  good points, especially that one should look to God first and foremost.  Amen.

More on Created To Be His Help Meet

Sheila Wray Gregoire discusses Debi Pearl, Wife Abuse and True Submission in Submission Doesn’t Mean Lying Over And Taking It.   The discussion in the Comments is also very interesting.  It was there that I found he following link:

Natalie at Dusty Feet has been working on a very detailed book review of Created To Be His Help Meet.

A Warning About Extreme Submission

Mrs. Jacks shares her testimony of How Submission Books Nearly Ruined her Marriage.

What Does The Bible Teach About Unquestioned Submission?

Bob Bixby looks at what the story of Ananias and Sapphira teaches us about Unquestioned Submission in, Sapphira – When Standing by Your Man Will Kill You.

Submission and Children

MamaPsalmist has some thoughts about Submission which I thought you might find interesting.

Christians Who Don’t Spank and Why

I came across 2 Christian bloggers who very eloquently explain why they don’t spank.

Spanking…..The Post I Finally Had to Write and Spare the Rod: What Spanking Teaches Children by Amanda at Not Just Cute

To spank or not to spank? by Raqual at Connected Christian Mom

More Investigation from CNN

CNN continues its investigative report of abuse among fundamental Christians and how it relates to the Pearls’ teachings.  Jocelyn Zichterman, who was raised in this culture and started Freedomfromabuse.net, explains the concept of Breaking The Will and how spankings must continue until the child submits even if it takes several hours. This video seems to cut suddenly, I’m wondering if this series will continue.

Broken Daughters

I just found another blogger, Lisa Bennet, who is sharing her life story/testimony of being raised in a fundamentalist christian home.  In Part 5 her parents start following the Pearls’ teachings.

REAL Parenting Joy

PfamilyGal expresses her concerns about the Pearls’ teachings in REAL Parenting Joy.

Analyzing the Schatz Tragedy

Cindy, from Under Much Grace, analyzes what causes people like Kevin and Elizabeth Schatz to harm their children in a new series:
Why Good People Make Dangerous Choices (Pondering Pearl and Lydia Schatz)

An Introduction

Part I: Virtue In Place of Unquestioned Obedience.

Part II: How Dehumanization (and Declaring War Against Family Members) Causes Moral Disengagement

Part III: Defining Aggression as Normal, Acceptable, and Desired Behavior

An Addendum Note About Lydia Schatz and the Correction She Suffered for a Mispronounced Word: Liberian Adoption and Reactive Attachment Disorder

Part IV: The Milgram Experiment and the Pressure to Commit Evil for the Common Good

Part V: Pondering the Atrocities of the Jewish Holocaust and its Relationship to the Study of Obedience

Bad Apples or Bad Barrels? The Short and Long Versions of Zimbardo on the Lucifer Effect

Part VI: The Calm Before the Storm Following the Schatzes’ “Guilty” Pleas

Part VII: The Breaking the “Diabolical Will” of Infants in the IFB – Even at Hephzibah House

Part VIII: There But For Grace

Part IX: Using the Milgram Study to Understand How Pearl Becomes Appealing

Part X: The Schatz Family is Not Unique

Series on First Time Obedience

Cindy of Under Much Grace has posted part 5 of her series about First Time Obedience: Revisiting First Time Obedience: Finding New Alternatives

For your convenience I will paste here the links to the rest of the series along with her descriptions:

  • A review of the submission required under multigenerational faithfulness as Vision Forum’s carryover from Bill Gothard’s submission teachings with various examples of this demand for unquestioned obedience without credulity. First post specifically examining “First Time Obedience” in young children.
  • A review of the principle of sacerdotalism and parental convenience (as a control issue in dysfunctional families) as rationales for requiring “First Time Obedience” and “leaps of faith” required under multigenerational faithfulness.
  • Review of the tendency to make every banal daily activity one of great eternal spiritual significance as a consequence of works-based salvation. Includes a discussion of viewing personality traits that do not fit the belief system’s paradigm as sinful as well as the building up of all gender related activities as sacramental for the impartation of inward sanctification.
  • Blog host’s personal experience with inherent personality traits treated by parents as sin, the idolatry of seeking parental approval, and the consequences of requiring unquestioned submission with the use of guilt and shame that predisposes one to easy brainwashing and compliance with thought reform. Includes a section from Biderman’s Chart of Coercion addressing the powerful effects of devaluing individuals in religious settings.
  • Discussion of the development of how perfectionism, works-based salvation and First Time Obedience squelch problem-solving skill and prevent the development of critical thinking under the guise of multigenerational faithfulness.

A specific review of the theological problems in Voddie Baucham’s defense of First Time Obedience as well as the refutation of the practice from Scripture. Echos concerns noted in this previous blog post concerning Baucham’s “Family Driven Faith” book.

Deb’s Review of TTUAC – Part 3

Deb has posted the 3rd and final part of her review of Michael Pearl’s book, To Train Up A Child. In this post she looks at how Pearl prevented “sissies” and trained his children to always be happy. She also looks at what he teaches about the rod. She says that what Pearl teaches about persistence bothered her the most. I totally understand that. It is exactly this emphasis on persistence which I suspect killed Lydia Schatz.

For your convenience, here are Part 1 and Part 2 and here is the Intro.

Deb’s Review of TTUAC

Deb, from The Wartburg Watch, promised to read and review To “Train Up A Child” in Monday’s post and by Tuesday she had already purchased and read it. She has posted part one of her review, and plans to post more later this week.  She is doing a great job of exposing the Pearls’ teachings.

Wife Only Submission vs Mutual Submission

I have noticed a confusion about the difference between WOS (Wife Only Submission) and MS (Mutual Submission) so I would like to clarify the difference and add some thoughts.

WOS is the belief that, in marriage, husbands are not obligated/called to submit to their wives out of reverence for Christ.

MS is the believe that husbands and wives are both obligated/called to submit to their spouse (and others) out of reverence for Christ.

WOS is often tied with patriarchy — which is the philosophy that, in marriage, the male has authority over his wife due to his gender.

In my opinion, patriarchy can be mostly-healthy, when the man is choosing sacrificial love towards his wife and/or when he uses his perceived authority in wise and godly ways — which would generally include trust, respect some ‘delegation’ of that perceived authority, etc.

In that ‘mostly-healthy patriarchy’ case, WOS is not what is truly going on — because ‘sacrificial love’ fits the Biblical definition of ‘submission’, even if neither spouse would use that word for it, and even though it depends on the (in my opinion, inaccurate) perception of inherent male authority. If the husband is submitting to his wife (by loving her sacrificially) that is a MS scenario, and anything else is just semantics.

The reason WOS (the idea that males are not obligated/called to submit to their wives out of reverence for Christ) is a bigger problem than ‘mostly-healthy patriarchy’ is because if men do not submit to their wives (no matter what vocabulary they prefer to use about it) they are not obeying God’s commands to them, and that’s a problem — often a problem that has effects on many others (the wife, children, children’s spouses, grandchildren). It’s hard for me to see people ‘normalizing’ the disobedience of one gender, while twisting the obedience of the other gender to compensate for it.

Now I believe that the NT describes a situation in which a husband had legal and civic responsibility over his wife, who was, by law his property. He had the full authority granted to him by the Roman government, and he could not ignore it. No one could.

Therefore I find it quite understandable that, in reading the New Testament some readers would draw the conclusion that because that hierarchy is described in the Bible, it is to be understood as ‘the right thing’ for Christians. I hold nothing against people who have honestly come to this conclusion — it’s easy to come by!

Patriarchy was the building block of Roman society. Equality between men and women would have been illegal. Therefore the New Testament gives commands as-to how a man with legal/civic authority is still capable of submitting to his wife, and is not exempt from the command to do so.

Therefore I consider marriages that involve ‘presumed authority’ of the male, ONLY WHEN combined with proper Christian submission (to each other) — to be within the Bible’s definition of a godly way to live.

Patriarchy-with-mutual-submission worked for the 1st Century Roman Christians, and it can work for our brothers and sisters if they want it to. We have no place to stand against them as if their conclusions and choices were sin.

What can’t work (as far as I can possibly see) is patriarchy-without-mutual-submission… because the belief that some Christians are free not to submit to other Christians (for reasons of gender and marital status) is completely out of step with the Bible — encouraging disobedience to direct commandments as well as disregarding the very core of the character of the Christlife.

Patriarchy can hurt people — and does — but it does not always hurt people, and it can be done ‘well’ according to the New Testament.

WOS (the belief that husbands are free to behave unsubmissively towards their wives) is the real poison. Living with someone who claims Christ but lives with a me-before-you attitude, and believes and preaches that it is right and proper to do so… that’s just not right… and people are definitely going to get hurt.

Looking at Bill Gothard

Dulce de Leche has shared some memories of Bill Gothard’s seminars and how his teachings affected her during her formative years in, Peering Underneath the Umbrella: Musings on Gothardism.  This is an exposé as well as a testimony as she gives us an inside look at Gothard’s teachings.

Speaking of Bill Gothard, E. Stephen Burnett has an interesting post at Quivering Daughters called, Bill Gothard and Patriarchy: Re-routed Feminism? which analyzes a quote from Bill Gothard about submission and looks at why so many of Patriarchy’s promoters are women.

Testing the Spirit of Quiverfull

Kristen Rosser has started a series over at NLQ called, Testing the Spirit of Quiverfull. I think this checklist of sorts actually pertains to all Patriarchy teachings. This is good reading for someone who is dabbling with Quiverfull/Patriarchy and thinking that they can separate the “meat from the bones.”  These posts are written specifically for those  “who have chosen to accept the Bible as authoritative for faith and practice. ”

Here are the posts so far:
Testing the Spirit of Quiverfull: Isolation
Testing the Spirit of Quiverfull: Hierarchy & Control
Testing the Spirit of Quiverfull: Perfectionism & Elitism

The Root Problem

Dulce de Leche uncovers the root problem with the punitive mindset in her post, Authority, Submission, Control and Discipline.

Yes, the root problem is control. Now that you have seen why we should not try to control our children, Lucy explains why she cannot control her children and what that looks like in her house.

Dolly Mama

Since yesterday’s post was about Patriocentricity and I have this link which mentions Debi Pearl, I might as well share it.  Dolly Mama writes about some parallels she sees between the FLDS movement and the patriocentric movement in Escape, FLDS, and some parallels.

An Open Letter to Debi Pearl

Another wife has tried and tested Debi Pearl’s Book, Created To Be His Help Meet and found that it nearly destroyed both her and her marriage. She tells her story in An Open Letter To Debi Pearl.

Kristina’s Keepsakes review of CTBHH

Kristina’s Keepsakes has started a series analyzing the Pearls’ books, starting with Created To Be His Helpmeet.
Created To Be His Helpmeet Part 1
Created To Be His Helpmeet Part 2