When quoting from To Train Up A Child (written and published by Michael and Debi Pearl), we should be careful about paraphrasing. We are being accused of misquoting. Here are some quotes from the book, which is found online here. I got the page numbers from quotes which are in circulation (originating from stoptherod.net) but I painstakingly checked each quote in the book to make sure that I am using direct quotes.
The Pearls recommend switching infants only a few months old on their bare skin. They describe switching their own 4 month old daughter (p.9).
At four months she was too unknowing to be punished for disobedience. But for her own good, we attempted to train her not to climb the stairs by coordinating the voice command of “No” with little spats on the bare legs. The switch was a twelve-inch long, one-eighth-inch diameter sprig from a willow tree.
On p.60 they recommend switching babies who cannot sleep and are crying, and to never allow them “to get up.”
But what of the grouch who would rather complain than sleep? Get tough. Be firm with him. Never put him down and then allow him to get up. If, after putting him down, you remember he just woke up, do not reward his complaining by allowing him to get up.For the sake of consistency in training, you must follow through. He may not be able to sleep, but he can be trained to lie there quietly. He will very quickly come to know that any time he is laid down there is no alternative but to stay put. To get up is to be on the firing line and get switched back down.
On p.79 they recommend switching a 7 month old for screaming.
A seven-month-old boy had, upon failing to get his way, stiffened clenched his fists, bared his toothless gums and called down damnation on the whole place. At a time like that, the angry expression on a baby’s face can resemble that of one instigating a riot. The young mother, wanting to do the right thing, stood there in helpless consternation, apologetically shrugged her shoulders and said, “What can I do?” My incredulous nine-year-old whipped back, “Switch him.” The mother responded, “I can’t, he’s too little.” With the wisdom of a veteran who had been on the little end of the switch, my daughter answered, “If he is old enough to pitch a fit, he is old enough to be spanked.”
On p.65 co-author Debi Pearl whips the bare leg of a 15 month old she is babysitting, 10 separate times, for not playing with something she tells him to play with.
After about ten acts of stubborn defiance, followed by ten switchings, he surrendered his will to one higher than himself. In rolling the wheel, he did what every accountable human being must do–he humbled himself before the “highest” and admitted that his interests are not paramount. After one begrudged roll, my wife turned to other chores.
On p.56 Debi Pearl trades blows with a 2 year old.
This time, her bottom came off the couch as she drew back to return the blow; and I heard a little karate like wheeze come from somewhere deep inside.
On p.59 they recommend spanking a 3 year old until he is “totally broken.”
She then administers about ten slow, patient licks on his bare legs. He cries in pain. If he continues to show defiance by jerking around and defending himself, or by expressing anger, then she will wait a moment and again lecture him and again spank him. When it is obvious he is totally broken, she will hand him the rag and very calmly say, “Johnny, clean up your mess.” He should very contritely wipe up the water.
On p.55 the Pearls say a mother should hit her child if he cries for her.
If a father is attempting to make a child eat his oats, and the child cries for his mother, then the mother should respond by spanking him for whining for her and for not eating his oats. He will then be glad to be dealing only with the father.
On p.46 the Pearls say that if a child does obey before being spanked, spank them anyway. And “if you have to sit on him to spank him, then do not hesitate. And hold him there until he is surrendered. Prove that you are bigger, tougher.” “Defeat him totally.”
Never reward delayed obedience by reversing the sentence. And, unless all else fails, don’t drag him to the place of cleansing. Part of his training is to come submissively. However, if you are just beginning to institute training on an already rebellious child, who runs from discipline and is too incoherent to listen, then use whatever force is necessary to bring him to bay. If you have to sit on him to spank him then do not hesitate. And hold him there until he is surrendered. Prove that you are bigger, tougher, more patiently enduring and are unmoved by his wailing. Defeat him totally. Accept no conditions for surrender. No compromise. You are to rule over him as a benevolent sovereign. Your word is final.
On p.80 they say
On the bare legs or bottom, switch him eight or ten licks; then, while waiting for the pain to subside, speak calm words of rebuke. If the crying turns to a true, wounded, submissive whimper, you have conquered; he has submitted his will. If the crying is still defiant, protesting and other than a response to pain, spank him again.
On p.47 they give details of what to use for a spanking instrument.
Any spanking, to effectively reinforce instruction, must cause pain, but the most pain is on the surface of bare skin where the nerves are located. A surface sting will cause sufficient pain, with no injury or bruising. Select your instrument according to the child’s size. For the under one year old, a little, ten- to twelve-inch long, willowy branch (striped of any knots that might break the skin) about one-eighth inch diameter is sufficient. Sometimes alternatives have to be sought. A one-foot ruler, or its equivalent in a paddle, is a sufficient alternative. For the larger child, a belt or larger tree branch is effective.
The Pearls recommend pulling a nursing infant’s hair (p.7)
One particularly painful experience of nursing mothers is the biting baby. My wife did not waste time finding a cure. When the baby bit, she pulled hair (an alternative has to be sought for baldheaded babies).
They recommend hosing off a child outside in order to clean him if he continues to soil himself.
So, my suggestion was that the father explain to the boy that, now that he was a man, he would no longer be washed in the house. He was too big and too stinky to be cleaned by the babywipes. From now on, he would be washed outside with a garden hose.
Also, here are 3 quotes which I feel show some questionable doctrine:
The guilt burdened soul cries out for the lashes and nails of justice. Your child cannot yet understand that the Creator has been lashed and nailed in his place. Only the rod of correction can preserve his soul until the day of moral dawning.
The parent holds in his hand (in the form of a little switch) the power to absolve the child of guilt, cleanse his soul, instruct his spirit, strengthen his resolve, and give him a fresh start through a confidence that all indebtedness is paid.
A child properly and timely spanked is healed in the soul and restored to wholeness of spirit. A child can be turned back from the road to hell through proper spankings. “Withhold not correction from the child; for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die. Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell (Prov. 23:13, 14). (p. 44)
Note: I find it ironic that he recommends using plastic plumbing line for a rod and then objects when people say that he teaches people to whip children.
Now, here are some very disturbing quotes directly from their website. You are going to have to go read this yourself to really appreciate it and believe that I did not take quotes out of context.
This is from Question #9: “Please give examples of the kinds of things for which you used the rod, both as a training tool and as punishment, for children were under 12 months.”
We never used the rod to punish a child younger than 12 months.
For young children, especially during the first year, the rod is used very lightly as a training tool. You use something small and light to get the child’s attention and to reinforce your command.
One or two light licks on the bare legs or arms will cause a child to stop in his tracks and regard your commands.
A 12-inch piece of weed eater chord works well as a beginner rod. It will fit in your purse or pocket.
Later, a plumber’s supply line is a good spanking tool. You can get it at Wal-Mart or any hardware store. Ask for a plastic, ¼ inch, supply line. They come in different lengths and several colors; so you can have a designer rod to your own taste. They sell for less than $1.00.
A baby needs to be trained all day, everyday. It should be a cheerful, directing training, not a correction training.
When your 6-month-old baby grabs sister’s hair, while he still has a hand full of hair, swat his hand or arm and say “No, that hurts sister.” If he has already let go of her hair, then put his hand back on her hair, so as to engage his mind in the former action, and then carry on with the hand swatting and the command.
If your 10-month-old is pitching a fit because he wants to be picked up, then you must reinforce your command with a few stinging swats.
Wait one minute, and then tell the baby to stop crying. If he doesn’t, again swat him on his bare legs. You don’t need to undress him, turn him over, or make a big deal out of it. Just swat him where any skin is exposed. Continue to act as if you don’t notice the fit. Wait two minutes and repeat.
Most babies will keep it going for 3 or 4 times and then slide to a sitting position and sob it out. When this happens, it signals a surrender, so give him two minutes to get control and then swoop him up as if the fit never happen and give him a big hug, BUT don’t hold him in the manner he was demanding. Now remove yourself from the area so as to remove him from association with the past event.
Don’t ever hit a small child with your hand. You are too big and the baby is too small. The surface of the skin is where the most nerves are located and where it is easiest to cause pain without any damage to the child. The weight of your hand does little to sting the skin, but can cause bruising or serious damage internally. Babies need training but they do not need to be punished. Never react in anger or frustration. If you loose it, get your self under control before you attempt to discipline a child.
Here is another quote from the No Greater Joy website. This quote is from an article from 1998, Angry Child.
A proper spanking leaves children without breath to complain. If he should tell you that the spanking makes him madder, spank him again. If he is still mad…. He desperately needs an unswayable authority, a cold rock of justice. Keep in mind that if you are angry you are wasting your time trying to spank his anger away.
I could break his anger in two days. He would be too scared to get angry. On the third day he would draw into a quiet shell and obey. On the fourth day I would treat him with respect and he would respond in kind. On the fifth day the fear would go away and he would relax because he would have judged that as long as he responds correctly there is nothing to fear. On the sixth day he would like himself better and enjoy his new relationship to authority. On the seventh day I would fellowship with him in some activity that he enjoyed. On the eight day he would love me and would make a commitment to always please me because he valued my approval and fellowship. On the ninth day someone would comment that I had the most cheerful and obedient boy that they had ever seen. On the tenth day we would be the best of buddies.
(Note that the quote above was linked to Stockholm Syndrome in an article in Secular Homeschooler which makes some interesting points.)
In an article called, Training Roseanna’s Flesh, Pearl explains how and why one must control a child at all costs.
For example: a child tries to slide from your lap onto the floor. On most occasions that’s just a way of letting you know where he wants to go. Fine, but there are times when you do not want him to slide to the floor. If your little fourteen-month-old makes an attempt to dismount your lap, and you indicate that you do not want him to, and he makes a protest by jerking away or whining, then by no means can you allow him to intimidate you into compliance. For, by so doing you have allowed the authority to pass to him. You would be encouraging rebellion. YOU MUST ALWAYS BE PERCEIVED TO WIN ANY CONTEST. It is all determined by what the child thinks. If there is a seed of resistance in the child, it must never be allowed to grow. Don’t allow that spirit of rebellion to become profitable.
When the child whines and makes an issue of something that to you was otherwise irrelevant, you must then follow-through, causing the child to do what he did not want to do. This is soul training – character building – sanctification of the natural spirit in your child. This won’t make him a Christian, but it will give him a better character than most Christians possess.
If, during the course of a day, no contest arises naturally, you should arrange one. Seek opportunity to thwart the child’s will, to cause him to submit to your command. If you cause him to surrender his will to you twenty times during the course of a day, he will not disappoint you with disobedience in public. Tell him to stop, sit, don’t speak for five minutes, etc. Play the half-hour “quiet time game,” the half-hour “don’t wiggle and squirm game.” Refuse him a treat when he is wanting it badly. Give it to him only when he is joyously submitted to your timetable. You mustn’t give the appearance of being blindly arbitrary, but always maintain full control. Never allow the child to dictate your actions.
I have found an article on the No Greater Joy site where Mr. Pearl explains some of his different terminology (aka DoubleSpeak) in regard to when a child is Too Young To Spank. Here is a quote from that page discussing a 6 month old:
So we watch him, knowing his propensity to selfish compulsion. When he seizes his bowl with intentions of dumping it, swat the offending hand with a little instrument (light wooden spoon, rubber spatula, flexible tubing less than a quarter inch in diameter, or any instrument that will cause an unpleasant sting without leaving any marks).
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About Hermana Linda
I am a christian. I believe Christ died for everyone including the child abuser. That is exactly what Michael and Debi Pearl are. without question! But, I’m telling you Right Now, child abusers are someone else’s ministry. I could never be a social worker. I’ve never heard of prisoners being visited in the crawlspace under the jail. But that’s where I’d end up–either there or the local mental facility.
Have you ever researched the results (fruit) of their child abuse in their own family? These do not appear to be the stereotypical angry cruel brutes creating another generation of angry cruel brutes; but rather they appear to be a joyful adjusted productive interactive family perpetuating the same goodness. My mind contrasts that with the cruelty I see in the permissive extremity; also in the life struggles I see in adults who were hatefully abused, as opposed to lovingly chastened.
They do appear to be joyful. Of course, to be anything but was reason for a spanking, so it stands to reason that they would always be joyful. I am not convinced that the Pearls’ children are emotionally healthy. In any case, the ends do not justify the means.
Oh, by the way, I do not approve of permissive parenting either. There are other ways of parenting besides corporeal punishment and permissive. Check out my Gentle Parenting category.
There are far too many terms used in the descriptions from said book and its associated website, of how to rear a kid, that should evoke far more worrisome conjectures. Words like “joyous subjection”, “submission”, “authority”, “(dis)obedience”, and many other such terms that would be more appropriate in literature presented by Sacher-Masoch or the Marquis de Sade. Using BDSM descriptions and terminology to define what ostensibly is a loving and mutual relationship with one’s own children is a severe departure from what is healthy for such a relationship. One might question adults in the same regard, but they’re adults and so on…infants and toddlers have only the motivations that they like to be happy, and want the adults in their lives to be happy! An infant certainly hasn’t the abstract capacity in intellect and emotion to conceptualise terms like deity, dogma, sin, or numerous others. To punish a child for a biological lack of capacity is criminal by analog to Amendment 8 of USC or similar legal principles which disallow punishment for persons unable to concieve of wrongdoing. I suggest for argument that a baby (A BABY!!!!!!!!) is not in a position to pontificate on subjects of higher logic or transcendence when they’re busy figuring out how fingers and pictures in books work. No person, I suspect strongly, who themselves were subject to abusive relationships in youth, would look now at this pathology and come to any conclusion except that the Pearls are sociopathic and twisted, furthermore are among the last authorities to be referenced by parents who have any real compassion in their soul, much less for their children. I distinctly wish this were otherwise; I wish fervently that right and wrong were actually addressed properly in the real world. It is this kind of religious adherent (the Pearls) that compels some thinkers to become atheists, with the argument that even as an atheist, a sane person would not torture little babies and that any love, empathy or compassion which Christianity (or whatever religion) purports to instill in its followers somehow missed this crowd entirely. Which is incredibly sad; because if something (in this case, love and affection) needs undue force behind it to make manifest, the result is dishonest in the extreme and not really there at all. Finally, any person who has been thus abused would recognise the apparent happiness exhibited by said Pearl family as being the result of response to abuse (wherein the children are denied rational self expression as appropriate to age) rather than a healthy childhood, and definitely the initiation of future cycles of abuse as those children procreate their own. Not in seven languages could I express properly the accurate and deserved contempt felt for these foul and bane excuses for humans.
Very well said. I agree with you on this.
Of course they APPEAR to be joyful. They’ve been painfully and abusively conditioned to APPEAR joyful. Every person has a breaking point. Is abuse morally justified because someone else was able to survive such abuse and (appear) to turn out “okay?”
You’re absolutely right Sister Sara! People keep going back to the scripture but they don’t rightly divide what they are reading. They miss our Lord Yahushua telling us NOT to harm our children “if anyone of you should hurt these little ones it would better that you were tied to a millstone at the bottom of the sea”. Just because force and intimidation work to get kids to do what you want doesn’t make it productive in the long run, in fact, children that are physically punished just grow up and do what they want under the mantra “I’m an adult”. True discipline which is structure, guidance, correction: is not done with fear or force. Abused kids do put on an act and I know because I was abused in the care of my mother and she bought into the lie that the enemy perpetuates that it’s “love”. So I guess I can beat my wife too according to that logic. I am glad that there are true virtuous women like you online that speak the truth of The Creator! And using your authority in Yahu’shua to fight the principalities and powers that are so prevalent in today’s society.
well said barri. May God put his hand and help these children.
no of course not.
Many cases though, they really do end up abusive or with some sort of criminal record. Murder, rape. You name it. In no way at all should a child be abused.
While I understand the need for child training, it can be done in LOVE, not forcing our will over another’s, especially a little child’s! Yes, they can be strong-willed, but how many of us adults are strong-willed against our heavenly Father’s will? Can you imagine God showing us who is bigger and stronger? That’s ego-centric! No. When raising children, I have 4, I ask myself “What would Jesus do to this child in this situation?” And I’m 99% certain He wouldn’t hit the child. I’m willing to acknowledge that I don’t understand God’s ways, but my heart screams and rejects the notion that He would hit his children to make them submit to His will. That is so opposite of who He is! So why should we hit these precious gifts He gave to us?
The Bible is very violent, and it teaches us about Christian subservience on many levels. It commands children to honor their parents and wives to obey their husbands. It even permits men to stone a cheating wife to death somewhere in the Old Testament. Christians believe in the subservience of women to men, men to God, and children to adults. And you ask why the Pearls did this? Because they were Christian extremists who read too much Old Testament.
Jesus was a great man though. It’s too bad most Christians praise his name while overlooking his teachings. Wish there were more true Emmanuelites out there. And don’t even get me started with the extreme sexism in the Bible. So many Christian fanatics I’ve met are women! I guess some like to be on bottom… And why only 4 gospels??? Weren’t there 12 disciples?
Paul, welcome to my site. I understand your point and am wondering how much you have read of my site. If you look around, you will find arguments explaining what the Bible really says about these topics. It is easy to misunderstand meaning when reading words originally written in an entirely different time, culture and language. The teachings against which I argue here twist and mistranslate scripture as well as taking it out of context. Many of these teachers fail to take into account that Webster was not around when the Bible was written, nor when the King James was translated. Therefore, looking up the word “Rod” in Websters does not make sense. Once must look up the Hebrew word, “Shebet” and find out what that meant to a Hebrew mind. It turns out that it is a large stick (staff) used to guide and implies Authority and Scripture.
I just did a quick internet search of shebet. The NAS only uses the “staff” concept once, while it uses the “club” concept 4 times, and the more generic “rod” more than 20 times. Like our English words, other languages have various concepts associated with the same word. You almost have to know the languages and be immersed in the cultures to make accurate interpretations. Is it probable that the Hebrew scholars were less equipped to make those determinations? Just thinking.
Sorry, what is NAS? New American Standard? Was that translated by Hebrew Scholars? Not trying to be snarky, I don’t acutally know and I’m a bit confused as to your point. It almost sounds as if we are agreeing.
I said above that we must understand the Hebrew mind, especially of the time the Bible was written. (I guess we ARE agreeing) Also, I don’t know any Jews or Hebrew Scholars who teach that we should hit our children with small flexible rods or sticks of any sort. In fact, if I’m not mistaken, Jews generally don’t spank much, if at all and then with only the hand.
Yes, New American is just the first one that came up. And yes, I think it safe to say that all major translations go back to original texts and are translated by Greek and Hebrew scholars who study the nuances of the ancient words and cultures, etc. Point being that they opted to use the brutal sounding “club” translation four times more often than the comforting “staff” concept. I know the context would prevail, but it just seems superficial to assume that all those 20+ “rod” instances only refer to guidance and authority.
Maybe. Remember that the Word of God is inspired, but the translations are not. If Shebet means club and we’re supposed to hit our children with it, they could die. That would be a contradiction because the Bible says that if we hit our child with Shebet, he will not die.
Paul, here’s something even more scandalous. Paul teaches us that men are supposed to lay down their lives for their wives, the way that Christ gave Himself for us. I submit my life to God because I trust that He is good and kind and merciful. He demonstrated that to me. If I thought God were just an ogre demanding that I submit, there’s no way that I’m even listening to a God like that. When I lay down my life for my wife and selflessly put her first, she will, by nature, feel safe to surrender to my care and leadership. It’s a beautiful principle when understood fully–you just can’t use half the equation! I wish you the best in your search for the mercy and kindness of God.
Please remember Paul never knew Jesus. Jesus never said women should submit to men. In fact, he gave some of his most important revelations to women. He did not appoint female apostles, because, just as in Arab countries today, no woman could have left her home and lived with a group of men without being stoned for unchastity. Jesus often rebuked his male disciples for their lack of faith and endurance, and they all but John abandoned him at the end, whereas the women were steadfast.
But most of all, Jesus made it very clear in the story of Mary and Martha, that women were to drop their housework if they felt the higher intellectual and spiritual call. They were NOT to be confined to the kitchen. they were NOT to ‘learn at home in submission to their husbands’. No, they could learn at the feet of the Lord after dropping housework “Mary has chosen the better part [the higher hard spiritual intellectual path] and it shall not be taken from her”. That’s from The Man Himself.
I have seen any number of ‘Christians’ quoting the savage cruel and oppressive words of Paul, but why is it they so rarely quote Jesus, and never ever this one?
Jesus treated women as equally as he could given the strictures of his time. You will never find Him saying that women are evil, temptresses, a danger to men or any of that garbage. He saw women as just as capable, in fact, maybe more so, of the hard path. The steadfast women, who came to the tomb, fearlessly, not the useless cowardly men who were so ready to pervert his words once he was gone, and so ready to let a vicious-minded man who had many issues take over their new church and kick the women to the bottom of the heap. In early Christianity, women taught and ministered and all the rest, til Paul came along, Paul, the woman-hater., Paul, the hater of the flesh, Paul who instituted all the worst things of the church, wrecking everything beautiful. It sis not beautiful for your wife to submit while you protect her like a child. That’s not how Jesus treated women, at all.
When the bible or any other tract goes against compassion, unconditional love, selflessness, mercy, patience, understanding and common sense, it is useless, even dangerous, as these broken sadists show. Atheists are good because being good is in one’s best interest, to treat people as you would want to be treated, not because of written rules or messages from deities. The important question is, if your spiritual leader told you it was okay to kill now, the rule has been changed by your god to make it totally all right to do away with anyone you suppose deserves it – would you kill, or would you have something inside you that would stop you? The answer, hopefully, is that each person learns the limits of the societies by living in a family and community, not by following a 2000+ year old collection of desert peoples’ superstitions and social conventions.
Your point is moot because the Bible does not go against compassion, unconditional love, selflessness, mercy, patience, understanding and common sense. Those who teach that it does have twisted the Truth and are false teachers.
No human is really good, we are all sinners. Only Christ was good and He paid the penalty for our sins. He does not teach us to hurt anyone and any teachings which say to hurt people are contradicting the Bible.
Your question is also moot because God would not change that rule. The anti-christ would, but a Christian is not to listen to him.
One cannot read these quotes without crying. It is antithetical to the character of God. We created eight videos and countless blog posts to show Christian parents how to parent like God parents us, earn the respect we want and foster close relationships with our children. We invite your comments here:
http://www.CalmChristianParenting.com.
Thank you for your comment. I have heard good things about you on Gentle Christian Mothers.
How do you reconcile the “rod” and “chastening” scriptures, and the many instances in the Bible where God inflicted pain of one type or another on His errant children and His enemies? Do you believe in the concept of eternal punishment or damnation?
Hi Royce,
Welcome and thank you for looking. Those are good questions. Here are some links to answer your questions about the Rod and Chastening:
http://parentingfreedom.com/discipline/
http://suffer-the-little-children.webs.com/divinescourging.htm
http://suffer-the-little-children.webs.com/therodorshebet.htm
The fact that God inflicted pain does not mean that we are to do the same, especially on our children in the Age of Grace. Check out http://greenegem.wordpress.com/2011/01/03/proverbs-and-spanking-part-3-believers-behavior/ for more about that.
I do believe in damnation, the non-believers will be apart from God forever. They cannot go to Heaven and be in His presence after rejecting His Free Gift of Salvation. There is no place found for them so they end up in the place prepared for the devil and his angels. I do not understand that to mean that we are called to hit our children.
Thank you for your responses. When you have time, I’m curious how you would interpret Hebrews 12.
Hebrews 12 tells believers not to lose heart at their persecution. It also says that a parent will correct/discipline his child. It could mean physically and it could mean verbally. I do not encourage permissiveness, one must correct and disciple their children.
Hermana,
I am not arguing in favor of hitting, but I have looked up the Greek word in this passage that is translated ‘scourge’ and it literally means to ‘whip’ or ‘flog’. Having suffered under the belt as a child, this verse really troubles me as it seems to be saying the God ‘flogs’ the children He loves and we should gratefully accept being ‘flogged’. You thoughts would be greatly appreciated.
I understand that to mean that God flogs us figuratively with consequences. I do not see it as meaning that we must flog our children. I am always on the look out for more insight on that passage. That which I have found so far are tagged Hebrews 12.
Hi, Katherine!
You wrote, “t I have looked up the Greek word in this passage that is translated ‘scourge’ and it literally means to ‘whip’ or ‘flog’.”
That passage in Hebrews 12 is in the context of comforting people who were being persecuted for their faith. They WERE being literally “scourged” and my understanding from the scholars I’ve read is that the word scourge was chosen to acknowledge their suffering and persecution and give reassurance that even something so awful and difficult like that could be used by God to a good end — even though it was painful and wasn’t a good thing in itself.
Other scholars have pointed out the parallel between the “scourge” in this passage and the scourging Jesus bore as part of the crucifixion. The early verses in Heb 12 point to that use it to encourage those who are being persecuted that Jesus walked through that, too.
Royce, there was a time when I would have interpreted Hebrews 12 as this harsh, depressing scripture. If you equate “discipline” with “punishment,” then of course you would draw the conclusion that physical pain is what an angry father imposes to punish his wayward child. But that’s not what Hebrews 12 says to me.
Read it in a different light. It’s a celebration when properly understood. Discipline means to teach, to disciple, to show. The purpose of God’s discipline is not to make me behave a certain way–it’s to help transform me to be more like God. That’s a beautiful thing. “I care about you so I am going to take the time to discipline/teach you. You aren’t some fatherless kid who is left on his own to figure life out. I’m going to show you–so I can prevent the greater pain of ruined relationships and guilt.” Discipline is a loving act, not an angry outburst. The pain of discipline for me is twofold–I respect God so I don’t want to disappoint Him, but moreso it’s the pain of realizing that I really have to change! And none of us like change–we want everyone else to change!
Try viewing God with a different lens. Sometimes the way we were raised (demanding, angry father) colors our picture of God. Dig under there and you’ll see a lot of tenderness and patience.
Kirk, thank you so much for your helpful comments.
Where do you see tenderness and patience with the whole if you sin you will go to hell for all eternity.
Correction is a lot different from punishment.
There are a lot of ways to correct a child that doesn’t cause them pain, and still teaches the lesson that you wish for them to learn. To physically harm a child until they ‘break’ is considered abuse. Whether you are leaving marks on their bodies or not.
The tenderness and patience is in that He paid for our sins with His own blood. He paid the sacrifice so that we don’t have to go to hell. If someone rejects Him and refuses to spend Eternity with Him in Heaven, He will not force us, but there is no other place found to be away from Him except for Hell. He suffered and died to provide a way for us to join him in Heaven, yet sadly many refuse to accept His Free Gift to go to Heaven and then blame Him that they end up in hell.
these quotations are hard to believe…
about ‘delayed obedience’- God honors this! Jesus preached a parable about the two sons- one who said he would obey and then did not- and one who said he would not and then did the work his father wanted- Jesus then asks- who did the father’s will? So- a small child who decides to obey after a bit of refusal is wonderful and should NOT be punished
I totally agree!
Every child will need a bit of time to think through whether they want to disobey or obey their parents. When my child doesn’t immediately put down what I have told him to put down, I get up. Then walk over to him and tell him again to put it down. Then I give him a minute to do so. If he does what I tell him then nothing happens. If he doesn’t do what I have told him, then I gently but firmly grasp what he is holding and tell him to give the object (and I name it) to me. If he gives it to me, I thank him for listening to me and let it drop. If not, I gently but firmly take it from him, and have him sit down for a time out. I haven’t had to repeat this more than twice with the same object, ever. My son is 4 years old.
The child who states that he will not obey and then does shouldn’t be punished. That would be like punishing a child for thinking of doing something wrong and then not doing it. Actions are the only thing you can correct. And speech if something is said that is wrong to say. Verbally telling a child to not say it and then explaining why is usually sufficient.
A child who states that they will obey and then doesn’t, by their actions should then be corrected.
There really is no need to physically harm a child. Especially when that child wouldn’t understand the correlation of the physical punishment and the action that caused it.
YAHWEH demands corporal punishment in a series of texts (attributed to the creator of the Universe), most famously ‘spare the rod…’.
Whilst I, of course, do not support corporal punishment, I also feel that it’s somewhat intellectually dishonest to say that the corporal punishment verses are not meant to be taken literally, or no longer apply, but other verses do.
By what yardstick do more moderate Christians decide which is still applicable and which not? There is a failing in logical process inherent here.
Have you read the links in my sidebar? If you take the verses literally, you would need to beat the child, (an older boy, not a toddler) with a huge staff. Shebet does not mean a small stick. It also is commonly used symbolically for authority. At least read The Rod Study and Is Spanking Biblical?.
OK, I’ll bite.
You assert that shebet could not mean using the rod used to beat fools / criminals (itself a delightful practice endorsed by YAHWEH) because to do so would potentially kill the child, and the verse says that it will not kill the child. However, it is very obvious that all kinds of implements can have multiple uses.
If I have a baseball bat, I can use if to beat someone to death. I can also use it to prod my cat away from my dinner. The fact that the bat can be used in the first instance does not preclude it’s use for the second. This logical leap regarding the rod is flawed.
Your second point revolves around the age of the child in question. However, this also doesn’t really stand up. If you are beating the child, then to be beating a young man of the ages 12-20 is actually very possible, indeed likely. You say ‘spanking their sons who are older’. I think the verses are talking about physical beatings, not a cautionary slap on the rump. Though I’m not sure which, coming from my father, should bother me more.
There is also a greater point here regarding interpretation of what YAHWEH is saying in relation to his character shown throughout the Old Testament. In the following stories, YAHWEH is hardly displaying qualities that we would value in our friends and neighbours: Abraham virtually sacrifices his son, before learning it was all a hoax, 40 (I think?) children killed by a bear that God sends for calling Elijah ‘bald-head’ (pretty funny, I’d say), children, animals, women, men of the Amalekites (and other tribes) massacred. And so on.
As such, is it unreasonable to think that these disputable verses advocate physical beatings? It’s hardly out of character, one could argue.
Just to be clear- I don’t like people who beat their kids. I don’t like religious fundamentalists who use scripture to advocate not thinking about things themselves either. But to try and turn something like this into something positive is misguided- better to just say those passages are wrong, man-made, and reject them.
Next you’ll be saying that ‘you shall not permit a Witch to live’ actually means we should examine the metaphorical witch in our hearts (the desire for more money) and ‘kill it’ through prayer… rather than the very obvious meaning of the verse.
I haven’t actually studied the verse about fools / criminals so I don’t know if it is Shebet or not. Spanking a child with a bat or large staff would certainly be dangerous. I prefer to take the logical meaning of applying authority and discipline (from disciple, not code for spanking) rather than believe that Yahweh wants us to beat our children. I do, indeed see it as out of character, but I do not only read the Old Testament, I read the New Testament and see that we are under Grace which we must also extend to our children. I do not reject any part of Scripture as man made. In its original language, it is the Word of God. However, translations can be misleading.
Oh come on people…sheep/goat herders do not use a rod to strike their animals. They use it to direct them to the area they wish them to go. It has dumbfounded me for years that people continue to think that ‘spare the rod, spoil the child’ means to physically strike a child. It means to guide them…direct them.
These people are nuts.
No! We are conscious…but I guess that would seem “nuts” to the unconscious.
I really think that he was referring to the writers of the quotes in question.
I grew up with a father like this- it was all about control of all behavior. Reading these passages completely echoes his philosophy of discipline. Perhaps I am an extreme example, but I wanted to share that this did not work out well for me at all. Externally, I may seem like a solid person, but as a teenager I began shamefully cutting myself and hiding it from the world. I feel intense self loathing about what I have learned are normal parts of most people’s lives (procrastination, slight clutter, cheating on diets) and I have coped with those feelings through physical punishment of myself for years. I continued the same punishment I felt I deserved because I was taught I deserved it as a child. Can this really be the best way to raise people to be healthy adults???
Thank you for your testimony.
People used to use this same logic to train dogs using force methods; many of these quotes seemed to come directly out of dog training manuals. Today it is widely recognized to be barbaric and ineffectual for many individuals. Apparently the Pearls haven’t even caught up to dog trainers. I cannot imagine switching a baby for crying or wanting to play with a toy. These people are seriously deranged.
Having read a couple of your ‘sources’ of the book, I would like to say the author is still misquoting by quoting out of context. After looking up 3 passages in the book’s online pages that you quoted, I found that all three you aren’t bothering mentioning that these kids were from spoiled families refusing to eat (before being given something he refused to play with), or the kid stopped climbing stairs when faced with the switch just sitting there, etc.
Bad form, author. Bad form.
If in some people’s minds it is justifiable to mistreat a child because he is spoiled then it would seem that we are leaving out pertinent information. In my mind, to mention what the child did would be just extraneous information which clutters up the quote. I do not believe in blaming the victim. Most people could not care less what the child did, he still would not deserve to be abused in the way this book recommends.
What 4-month-old needs to be taught not to climb stairs? Mine wasn’t even crawling then! Exactly what is accomplished by hitting a baby with a switch? Infants have no way of communicating their needs other than crying or “pitching a fit.” They are not sufficiently developed to form the sort of intent that the Pearls appear to want to beat out of them. Using a switch to “train” an infant does nothing except teach the baby that they are not safe and their needs will not be met by the people who are “caring” for them.
As an example, you can read about the effects of institutionalization on infants and toddlers. In countries where orphanages are over-crowded and under-staffed and babies are given little human interaction…the ones who spend their days in cribs…tend to develop attachment disorders that persist even after adoption. For some of these children, they are never able to establish a family connection because they have had their basic needs ignored (or in the case of the Pearls, just beat out of them). If an infant is incapable of learning a lesson from your switchings, then all you have accomplished is making them afraid of the very people who should make them feel safe.
I’m a Christian. I believe the Bible and try to live by it. BUT those quotes from the book are absolutely sickening. People like to take verses from the Bible and make it say whatever they want it to. Including when they are just venting their own anger and taking it out (abusively) on their own children. I am disgusted and horrified. Switching a baby because they want to be picked up and all the other ‘advice’ offered is ridiculous, lacking in common sense and personally offensive.
People like to quote about the ‘rod’ and training their children. If you study that verse you come to find that a rod was used to guide…not to physically bring pain to teach a lesson. This will haunt me. Children are gifts from God, not animals to train and punish. I also believe there is a difference between discipline and punishment. Discipline will always teach a lesson in love and direct towards the right behavior, punishment is negative and destructive.
Thank you so much for your comments.
I just want to give an alternate suggestion with stairs. The Pearl’s methods on “safety training” are often defended online because stairs are a safety issue. My suggestion with stairs and babies is this: Stand behind baby, and allow them to crawl up the stairs. If they fall, catch them, comfort them, then encourage them to try again. You are one stair away, and there to keep them safe. They will not get hurt. This way, your baby learns how to get up and down stairs safely, through practice and not giving up. When you are not there to supervise, put a baby gate up, but make sure that the baby has plenty of opportunity to safely climb the stairs.
It is counter-intuitive to teach a baby that stairs are inherently dangerous and off-limits, because they see you going up and down them all the time. They are learning how to “be” from watching you, and imitating you. With this in mind, it is more appropriate to provide opportunities for them to learn how to get up and down the stairs in a safe environment – with you there to catch them, should they fall. Just like there is a rail at the ice-rink for you to use while you gain coordination to learn to ice-skate, you stay with them and let them practice and learn while they gain coordination.
I did this with my youngest, and she learned to get up and down stairs easily and safely. Now, she can climb trees like a pro, and has amazing coordination. This is, in my opinion, because we fostered that learning and provided opportunities for her to learn with a safety net. —- just wanted to reply with this because it was on my mind after reading this.
Thank you, that is a good point. I did pretty much the same thing. I also taught them from an early age to always descend feet first. I would say, “Feet first” while maneuvering them into the right position (on their tummy and feet first) to get down from the couch or the bed and later go down stairs. Later I would just say, “Feet first” and they would lay on their bellies and seek with their feet. I could yell that at them from the bottom of a jungle gym as well. They also grew up to climb without fear.
KP,—-> it would not matter what the child had done, beating him/her is wrong.
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I have 4 kids and I have full hands every single day. I still haven’t found one good reason to ever pick up a stick or even raise my hand. Yes….shockingly, children have brains! They are able to rationalize and learn by following their parents example. And there’s now worse example than watching a full grown adult use physical punishment to solve the ‘dislike’ of their child’s behavior. My kids are 19,12,10 & 7. Two boys, Two girls. So yes, I do have some experience.
My oldest is in college.
My 12 yr old is doing home-school.
My 10 yr old and 7 yr old are in PS.
(No, I don’t home-school do to any religion whatsoever. I don’t believe in indoctrinating children.)
I home-school him simply for his health. He spends a lot of time in the hospital, it was easier for him this way. The sad part is, it’s FREAKS like the nut job who wrote this book, who give regular home-schoolers a bad name! And any home-schooler who actually does this crap to a child, should be put away on grounds of complete and utter lunacy!
Can I please remind you that “God is Love”? Beating a child is not showing LOVE. Where I live (New Mexico) you can go to PRISON for hitting a child under the age of 3, and it is 100% ILLEGAL to beat a child for crying. It doesn’t make sense. I believe in spanking but this is child abuse (NM State LAW).
My heart breaks and I feel sick to my stomach for the children who have and will be subjected to this. How can anyone who believes in God or Goodness think this is anything but wrong? I know deep in my heart that God would never want anyone to physically or emotionally bully a child in this way. The unspoilt beauty of their pure, sacred little spirits is not only overlooked and neglected by these teachings of child abuse but their God-given spirits are actively rejected, broken and deformed by it. It’s ugly and it’s wrong. Taking the hitting out of it – consciously and systematically punishing, ignoring or rejecting a child’s expression of his/her emotional needs is abusive. Babies and children cry or lash out because they need something from us or are overwhelmed, and they test boundaries because they don’t yet know where they are, not because they have some evil in them that has to be beaten down and controlled. They need the assistance, comfort, reassurance and safety of a loving parent, who was blessed with the responsibility to care for and protect them. I’m terrified that there are parents looking to this abuse for guidance in raising their precious children. It’s a gross abuse of the trust that is put in parents by God to watch over the most helpless and dependant of His children. How can this be published and sold? How can this even be legal? In the few quotes I’ve read above (regardless of any context they were written in or how the child supposedly ‘earned’ their ‘lesson’) there is reference to weapons (call it what you like but they are weapons) and causing pain. It’s assault! Calling the hitting ‘switching’ and saying that it should never be done in anger and that the intention is of love and for the child’s own good does not, in any way, make this ok. If a university professor or business owner employed a similar abuse of power to ‘train’ their students or workers to behave to their preference, they could be charged – possibly relating to assault, possibly even torture. Stand in the child’s shoes – they don’t need to be abused (rejected, dominated, punished, belittled, physically hurt) to learn from us. Just because the balance of power lies with the parent and the child can’t assert their rights doesn’t mean they don’t have the same needs and rights as every adult. They don’t have our knowledge and experience, so they certainly need direction and discipline (in the form of guidance and appropriate consequences) but they still have all of the rights and needs an adult has, including to feel loved and to be heard, respected and free from harm. No end of harm could come to the spirits of children on the receiving end of this awful abuse of power. A parent should be someone you can trust never to hurt you but to respect your God-given spirit and gently, lovingly guide and nurture you. I pray with every part of me for those who encounter this or similar manuals that justify and instruct in child abuse, that they will see it for the abuse that it is, have some sense of the deep damage they could do and be drawn instead to seek guidance in raising their children with gentle and respectful discipline that honours, nourishes and guides their child’s spirit – for the good of the child and the greater good of society. And I pray for liberation and healing for the innocent victims of the physical and emotional abuse that’s perpetrated by any parent who knowingly or naively imposes such methods on their children.
I have experienced God’s discipline. It is painful. I don’t agree with the Pearl’s at all, but I also disagree with those who claim that spanking is carte blanche evil. I was brought back from a painful and life destroying addiction, and though it was an extremely painful experience I recognize that it was BECAUSE He loved me that He allowed what happened to happen. It is a testimony of His great love that He would never let me go… He would not allow my addiction to destroy me. I was arrested for something completely unrelated, and through the fear and shame, repented, aight help, and eventually was called to become a missionary. Let’s not cheapen love by making it fluffy and nice. His love is perfect. His love seeks our good. It was very much necessary in my life to go through a deeply painful experience in order to be transformed and realize how valuable I am to Him.
You call it punishment, I call it natural consequences. Either way, it does not mean that we must hit children for developmentally appropriate behavior. Glory to God for your deliverance!
There is nothing wrong with spanking your child. I was spanked with rulers, switches, belts, and palms. I grew up to be a successful doctor and my sister is an accountant and my baby brother is in the Air Force. We were not abused. We were disciplined using spankings, lectures, and various punishments. Spank your kids and maybe we won’t have so many rapist, murders, thieves in our communities. We may be able to reduce the growth of poverty stricken neighborhoods with single mothers on welfare.
I am glad to hear that you feel yourself to be a success in spite of the violence to which you were subjected. I am interested to hear your definition of successful. Does this mean that you are making a lot of money or that you are happy and contented? Most importantly, I hope it means that you believe in Jesus Christ and His death and resurrection unto salvation.
I wonder where you get the idea that spanking one’s children will prevent rapes, murder and thievery. Statistics show that the majority of people in jail were spanked as a child. More important to a child’s emotional and mental health is that the child feel loved. This can be accomplished with or without spanking. Spanking is not the crux of the matter. A child who was spanked into submission may never commit rape, murder or thievery, but may also suffer secretly with feelings of unworthiness and a need to seek out random people on the internet with whom to argue. A child who was not disciplined in any way is also unlikely to turn out well. However, a child raised with firm, gentle discipline is highly likely to grow up to be a healthy and productive member of society.
For having so much information, this website and the creator of it are extremely misleading & most definitely don’t know what they are talking about. For starters, the word “whipping” is never even used in the Pearls’ book, but somehow repeatedly gets translated that way in their “exact quotations”.
What a sad waste of ones life to spend it shooting arrows at an innocent family. If you wanted to take the time and do something productive, you would see that through this method of training (not abuse) the Pearls’ family chords and love for eachother run deeper than most.
I was also raised in a family where similar training methods were in place, and now in my 20′s myself and my 5 siblings all THANK my parents for the discipline that we received…of course you wouldn’t understand that, but you don’t care to either since all you care to search for are words and situations that you can twist to fit into your horrible storybook.
Thank you for pointing that out. I had gotten the page numbers from another site and inserted the correct quotes, keeping their description. However, there is no need to use that word. The words “switching” and “spanking” will do fine to convey the meaning.
Now that I have the correct words in the descriptions of the quotes, there is no more twisting going on.
Everyone can read the quotes for what they actually say and decide if they find it to be a good way to raise children or not.
Wow. People actually do this? It’s child abuse in the UK. Your supposed to encourage kids not make the scared of you. This encourages setting your children up to test their will. A baby doesn’t know right from wrong and they want you to whip them with a branch?
Yes, it is sad. Of course, the great majority of people who do this are misguided and sincerely believe that they are doing the right thing. My job is to convince them otherwise. I have removed the profanity and threats from your comment, I trust that you understand.
First let me say THANK YOU for the work you do on this site, and also let me say both my wife and I are glad that we found it. My wife and I are both Eastern Orthodox and we have a eight month old Daughter, Olga (named after St Olga of Alaska). Upon hearing my wife was pregnant, many people began recommending “How to train up a child” (a few even were clergy).. This may sound awful, but due to what I knew of the people that recommended the book to me, I never did read it, but rather assumed that I would probably disagree with it.
Mostly due to curiosity I decided to do some research on this book that so many people thought should have been an important part of my pre-parenthood education.
I am horrified by what I have found.
I am sure I am not the only person that feels this way, but I find it hard to believe that ANYONE that calls themselves a Christian sees this type of “parenting” as anything other than, at best cult-like behavior modification, at worst abuse/torture.
On a related note; my father-in-law, while not as strict as the book recommends, followed the basic principles outlined. My wife to this day has a hard time expressing her own thoughts without apologizing for having them and very much regrets that she (and her siblings) spent her childhood scared of her father and how it impeded any real relationship they did have. The idea that any parent would want their child afraid of them, greatly distresses me.
Thank you for your thoughts. I’m so glad that you have the God given common sense to see the dangers of these teachings.
Archbishop Lazar Puhalo will be doing a podcast soon on the dangers of this type of parenting. I Will send you a link when it is up.
A quote from him on the subject..
“The way to “Train up a child” is to follow your heart, your best instincts, and embrace the child with love. If you wish to teach the child, make it empathy, care for others and compassion. Corporal punishment is barbaric, destructive, and unnecessary.”
It is disgraceful and sickening that these perverted individuals have been able to publish this filth. Perhaps the most disgusting part about it is that they do it in the name of Christianity. They are not true Christians and they give my religion a bad name. This is nothing short of child abuse. I can only imagine that it would be a very mentally sick person who would impose such measures to ‘train a child’. It is clear that the publishers/authors of this book were abused as children and they need psychiatric help. This makes me so sad for the children who fall victim to this kind of abuse… some people should NOT be allowed to be parents.